Sam Altman on OpenAI's Board Saga, AGI's Power Struggle, and Elon Musk Lawsuit

The conversation with Sam Altman delves into the tumultuous OpenAI board saga of November 2023, which Altman describes as the most painful professional experience of his life. He reflects on the chaotic period, the overwhelming support he received, and the personal psychological toll it took, including a "fugue state" afterward. Altman views the event as a "preview" of the intense power struggles expected on the road to Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), emphasizing the need for resilient organizational structures and boards capable of operating under immense pressure. He acknowledges lessons learned about governance, incentives, and the unique power dynamics of a non-profit board not directly answerable to shareholders. Altman discusses the ongoing evolution of OpenAI's board, highlighting the need for diverse expertise beyond just technical understanding, including insights into societal impact. He emphasizes the importance of track record for board members, contrasting it with the "slope" preferred for other roles. The discussion also touches upon the nature of leadership, valuing consistent performance in "quiet moments" over just crisis management, exemplified by Mira Murati's contributions. Altman expresses his deep respect and affection for Ilya Sutskever, dispelling memes about Ilya having seen AGI, and reiterating Ilya's profound commitment to AGI safety and long-term thinking. A significant portion of the interview addresses the lawsuit filed by Elon Musk against OpenAI. Altman expresses uncertainty about Musk's true motivations, recounting the historical context of OpenAI's founding as a research lab with evolving capital needs, leading to its current "eyebrow-raising" hybrid structure. He clarifies that Musk chose to part ways with OpenAI after seeking total control, including a proposal for Tesla to acquire the company. Altman defends OpenAI's mission of making powerful AI tools freely available as a "public good," distinguishing it from a strict open-source mandate, and expresses sadness over the lawsuit, calling it "unbecoming of a builder." Finally, Altman offers advice against other startups adopting a non-profit to for-profit transition model, citing the complexities and difficulties encountered by OpenAI. He reiterates his hope for an amicable relationship with Elon Musk in the future, despite the current tensions. The conversation underscores the immense stakes involved in AGI development, not just technologically, but also in terms of governance, human trust, and societal responsibility, framing the recent internal conflicts as crucial learning experiences for navigating the future.

"I think compute is gonna be the currency of the future. I think it'll be maybe the most precious commodity in the world."

"The road to AGI should be a giant power struggle. I expect that to be the case."

"That was definitely the most painful professional experience of my life and chaotic, and shameful, and upsetting and a bunch of other negative things."

"I think boards are supposed to have a lot of power, but one of the things that we did see is in most corporate structures, boards are usually answerable to shareholders... In this case, I think one of the things with our structure that we maybe should have thought about more than we did is that the board of a nonprofit has, unless you put other rules in place, like quite a lot of power, they don't really answer to anyone but themselves."

"I think a mistake that you or I might make is to think that only the technical understanding matters. And that's definitely part of the conversation you want that board to have. But there's a lot more about how that's gonna just like impact society and people's lives that you really want represented in there too."

"Ilya has not seen AGI, none of us have seen AGI. We've not built AGII."

"I think I kind of think of Ilya as like always on a soul search in a really good way."

"I would definitely pick a diff... Speaking of going back with an oracle, I'd pick a different name."

"I think that speaks to the seriousness with which Elon means the lawsuit. I mean, that's like an astonishing thing to say, I think."

"I would heavily discourage any startup that was thinking about starting as a non-profit and adding like a for-profit arm later. I'd heavily discourage them from doing that."

"I think this whole thing is like unbecoming of a builder, and I respect Elon is one of the great builders of our time."

"I'm not worried about becoming too cynical. I think I'm like the extreme opposite of a cynical person. But I'm worried about just becoming like less of a default trusting person."